Miscellaneous ⇒ Licenses, GPL & Violations :: Archives ⇒ the licenses with the new modules :: Archived ⇒ Community Forums ⇒ CPG Dragonfly™ CMS
Forum FAQForum FAQ SearchSearch ModeratorsModerators
Forum IndexLicenses, GPL & Violations

Archived ⇒ the licenses with the new modules Revive this topic

Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Author Message
protoplasm
Supporter

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 40

I have a major concern about the new licenses with some of the new, good modules. Some of them aren't GPL. They are freeware/shareware with new restrictions. While, even tho these are generous offerings (and I would be appreciate if I chose to use them), if this is where this CMS is headed...I just don't know. One of the major reasons I changed to cpgnuke and eventually Dragonfly was because it was clearly a good GPL environment.

I think that if the only new development is going to be license-restrictive freeware/shareware modules, that would change my outlook. I wish the remaining developers who are developing under the GPL license, would communicate their future plans and intentions fairly soon. Very sad


protoplasm's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Unix/Apache 1.3.33 /PHP 4.4.14/MySQL 4.1.14-standard/Dragonfly 9.0.6.1
View user's profile
DJ Maze
Developer

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 5918
Location: http://tinyurl.com/5z8dmv

How can we develop on costs without getting anything for it in return while you are making money with it?

There are to much people that don't understand GPL, and due to that many developers don't want to use the GPL anymore.
This is also because most people who use this software are still minors (< 18) and haven't got the brains yet to understand it.

By dual-licensing products the developer don't kill Open-Source and receive a small amount of money to cover a small part of his costs. If every user donated $1,- to each opensource product the developers didn't need to dual license all products.

Products that allow you to make money deserve a dual-license where the non-profit user can use it for free and the profit user must pay. Ofcourse a developer may decide to provide you a free copy of an product when you donate to the couse of OpenSource as well (design, support, whateffa)

I won't go in detail and if you still not get it you shouldn't be here but try Mambo or any other OpenSource CMS that has non-opensource add-ons and ask there the same thing.


DJ Maze's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Fedora 19 / 2.4.6 / 5.5.37 / 5.5.13 / Mercurial
View user's profilePhoto Gallery
Phoenix
• Many Posts •

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 8840
Location: Netizen

If the modules are written completely from scratch, with no content from pre-existing modules (whether Dragonfly, php-nuke, etc), it's the author's choice on license, otherwise the restrictive licensing is invalid.

_________________
DonationsPro for DragonflyCMS & SMF

Phoenix's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
View user's profilePhoto Gallery
protoplasm
Supporter

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 40

Phoenix, that's my understanding as well.

When I bought into cpgnuke several years ago, it was GPL. Everything said GPL. Now you open up stuff and there are 3 or 4 different licenses. At the bottom of this page and every page it says GPL. I read the license prior to using it then and licenses now. Honestly, it has become way confusing. As much as I love this software, and as much time as I've put into making my hobby website customized, I guess, after DJ's comments, I should take leave as soon as I can figure out which way to go. I've lost lots of money supporting my hobby website so that others could enjoy my hobby as well. Open source helps make it more affordable for me to do that.

And what I don't get is this...
notwithstanding the great contribution of DJMaze and the developers for which I remain very appreciatve, the DF code originates from GPL sources. How, then, can GPL derivative software be anything but GPL?

So what is DF? Is it solely GPL like it says at the bottom of every page or not?

GPL means vigor and rapid development to me. It gives me the ability to tweek and if I were to choose to do so, share my altered software if I wanted, for free. There is a great spirit surrounding GPL software that I personally like. Are the rules being changed midstream, am I misunderstanding GPL, or was CPGNUKE not solely GPL from the beginning?

These questions are sincere and intended in a respectful manner. Your answer will help me make a decision as to head out the door or hang in there.


protoplasm's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Unix/Apache 1.3.33 /PHP 4.4.14/MySQL 4.1.14-standard/Dragonfly 9.0.6.1
View user's profile
DJ Maze
Developer

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 5918
Location: http://tinyurl.com/5z8dmv

Dragonfly: GPL
Website content: CC NC-SA
Some professional add-ons: custom

Like phoenix and i've said, some modules are very profesional/sophisticated. For example the "Downloads Pro" module.
Such a module is a very attractive component to start a profitable website where visitors must register or pay to get it, so we protect the module for ever being profitable by people who don't understand the means of OpenSource and we let them pay for its use.

I've always been against GPL for money making code but, i am not against OpenSource. The issue is that these days loads of people think they can get away with it by making money using OpenSource code so actualy the GPL is outdated for the current human behavior.
If everyone just did what they should do, which is donating and sponsoring, then the GPL is perfectly fine.

Dragonfly will always be GPL as it should and default add-ons are also GPL, but we just write very profesional looking modules aside to get atleast something back to keep Dragonfly development.

Many of you know i got cut-off from the internet because i couldn't pay the bills anymore so development stops. It's not mine nor dedicated users their fault. It's the other 5000 dragonfly users.


DJ Maze's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Fedora 19 / 2.4.6 / 5.5.37 / 5.5.13 / Mercurial
View user's profilePhoto Gallery
Kuragari
500+ Posts Club

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 25, 2005
Posts: 563
Location: <a href="http://www.animeego.com">AnimeEgo</a>

In my opinion the whole idea of opensource is to provide something for others ina free environment.

I agree that this whole alternative licensing thing has gotten worse as time goes on.

Personaly, if you want money for your time, then sell your modules and be done with it. Don't blame you being poor on GPL, you spent the time doing it for free, and you knew you were doing it for free.

I release everything I do as GPL, and some things I do are based on GPL so I don't really have a choice in the matter. But the point remains whether I have the choice or not: I spent the time by my own choice knowing it was free

Yes it's nice when people donate, and it's nice when you can make money off something you made, but being a developer for a GPL project is not why your bills cant get paid. I develop alot of different opensource things including Dragonfly modules and addons, but I also have a job. I work on the free projects when I have time, and projects that make me money get a higher priority.

Simply put you have a couple options.

1.) Deal with the licenses put in place by the developers of the individual projects.

2.) Use a different module.

3.) Pay someone to make a GPL module that has similar function.

4.) Do it yourself.

Dragonfly itself is, and as DJMaze said, will always be GPL and free. What module and addon developers decide to do with their own modules is a completely different thing.

Leaving Dragonfly for a less worthy CMS just because a couple side developers decided to try and make money is not a very smart decision in my opinion.

That being said, I think alot of people are getting the wrong idea because of Downloads Pro.
Downloads Pro is not a core module.
Downloads Pro is not GPL
Downloads Pro should not be kept in the same site/development area as the rest of dragonfly.

Just my opinion.


Kuragari's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Linux 2.6.9 / 1.3.34 / 4.1.14 / 4.4.1 / CVS
View user's profileVisit poster's websiteYahoo Messenger
DJ Maze
Developer

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 5918
Location: http://tinyurl.com/5z8dmv

Downloads Pro is freeware for non-commercial/educational use.
It is designed by Trevor and me and I don't understand what the fuss is all about because you can put anything freeware based in it without having to pay for it.

GPL is not the only Opensource license, there are many more: opensource.org/
Lots of people are fixated to the word "GPL" but the LGPL for example would be much cooler.

When you offer shareware thru the module say $45 a piece then we want $1 from it, and it doesn't make us rich either, is that so bad?

As for Downloads Pro being on this site, I don't see any issue since it's freeware and you get free support just as with dragonfly.

Some other module designers have this same approach or the GPL approach, but if the module is fully shareware based it is not listed here.


DJ Maze's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Fedora 19 / 2.4.6 / 5.5.37 / 5.5.13 / Mercurial
View user's profilePhoto Gallery
protoplasm
Supporter

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 40

My original issue isn't with developers making money off of DF in an acceptable way. It is about CONFUSION. Let me explain.

1) Firstly, mixing non-GPL modules with GPL modules confuses me about what is what in regards to license requirements. What are the implications of adding a non-GPL module with GPL core? I would have to agree that keeping DF downloads either only GPL or clearly marking the download (prior to download) according to the license would be helpful, as I personally want to stick with only GPL modules and I don't want to inadvertently goof. Why I want to stick with GPL modules is so that I can customize them if I want to for my site. Not so I can sell them and make money off them. It is just easier for me to remember things down the line, if I know I've stuck with GPL all along.

2) Secondly, there is CONFUSION about what direction DF is heading. If developers are going to concentrate their whole time on freeware/shareware, my opinion is that DF isn't going anywhere--unless someone decides to do a GPL fork. I've read the licenses and they are very restrictive (at least in my opinion)--not just in terms of $ for commerical endeavors.

A GPL fork will by necessity happen. Someone will do it I am certain, because DF is the BEST GPL CMS out there. In the meantime, I have started to teach myself php so that I can maintain and develop my own modules for my hobby website. And if they are any good, I want to share them freely. I've tested my present installation on mysql 5 and php5 and we are good to go for some time, I think.

No one can fault any developer who wants to make a buck, just like no one can fault any DF user for making an informed decision about what he or she wants to do. I will always remain grateful to the developers of DF and I do wish you all the very best with your life and endeavors.

If the community knew DF had a clear plan for a GPL future (in addition to the freeware/shareware) and if it were laid out with vision and passion as in the past, you would find a lot more support. I am certain of it.

But I look at the developers and assistant coders groups and those groups, last I looked say closed--no more users being accepted. In my opinion, that says to me in light of other non-GPL events, unless I hear someone say otherwise, that there is a possibility that DF is being steered toward non-GPL. Tell me if I am wrong. I would really like to be wrong.

As for me, and for the time being, I have decided to stay with GPL DF and learn php myself. No Pro modules for me, although I am certain that these modules fit the needs of a segment of the community. I've been a hobbyist .NET coder, it shouldn't be too hard to learn php and maintain DF until I can figure out Joomla!, TYPO3, Drupal or something else, should I ever need to. Hopefully not.


protoplasm's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Unix/Apache 1.3.33 /PHP 4.4.14/MySQL 4.1.14-standard/Dragonfly 9.0.6.1
View user's profile
DJ Maze
Developer

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 5918
Location: http://tinyurl.com/5z8dmv

DF is GPL and that will always be, there's no way we are heading a different direction and this is also because many people have put their skills into it.
If you understand the GPL then you will notice it is also an impossible task to tag a different license on it because of third party code like coppermine and the phpbb derivatives.

Trevor and I have put "Downloads Pro" on a different license to prevent snooping and derivative works. Not because of "stealing" but to provide Dragonfly users something special that is not available in other software like php-nuke.
It also gives you as user a good point of customer support instead of running around on many websites trying to get support from a derivative work.

For example there are still people registering on this website and request support for coppermine and php-nuke because phpnuke.org has no support section and people mix coppermine standalone with our version.

Others who create a Dragonfly derivative also request support on this website although that is NOT what GPL is about. GPL is about sharing knowledge and improve a product instead of lifting along on someone's bandwagon.

All these issues and many more made decision to put our advanced add-ons on the different license to provide a good support place and to provide some exclusive material.

Two licenses where Dragonfly is GPL and the other the exclusive is more then sufficient for many developers.

I do understand that it is a bit confusing to have two kind of license to deal with but, if we put for example Downloads Pro as GPL you will notice within a month the derivatives boost for many cms and portals and an increase of support requests for these derivatives on this website.
We just don't have to time to check all websites and move all these requests into the trashbin if needed.

We hope you now understand why we did it.


DJ Maze's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Fedora 19 / 2.4.6 / 5.5.37 / 5.5.13 / Mercurial
View user's profilePhoto Gallery
BrokenCrust
500+ Posts Club

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 504

but, if we put for example Downloads Pro as GPL you will notice within a month the derivatives boost


Sorry but I don't agree with this. If you truly think that putting a shareware license will stop people steeling your code then you are at best being naive.

Freeware / Shareware is not good for the community, it is only good for you. This essentially makes you money. End of story. If Downloads pro is successful (as I am sure it will be) then many people will pay for support. In the end this will soak up all your support time and in addition totally drive your development focus. That will kill the community.

Now, don't get me wrong. Money is a nice thing to have, and I totally understand why you've gone this way - it seems to me that you are annoyed that people didn't pay you for something that you gave them for free. Now you want to use the success of your work (its installed base) to launch a few shareware products that'll pay off. Although I think you totally fail to realize that DF has a large installed base because of one main factor. It is free. Being good would not have been enough.

However, you are now facing the start of the backlash and a fork is now unavoidable, plus it will take most of the talent with it. Support here is waning and there is a genuine feeling that DF is now stalled with a management team that doesn't welcome new members and a public face that appears arrogant and unwilling to listen even to it's paid supporters.

This isn't about anything other than openness. Shareware, closed dev membership, unwillingness to talk about direction, or to even inform the community about anything. All these things point to ClosedSource. If you and the other dev's want to take a back seat or develop freeware, fine, but if you don't replace yourselves and hand over management to a new team, this time next year, you'll be developing mods for another groups DF fork.


BrokenCrust please enter your server specs in your user profile! 😢
View user's profile
alva
1000+ Posts Club

Offline Offline
Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: The Netherlands

A fast, flexible and secure GPL core is the most important thing to me. Why do we expect the devs to create modules or add features to existing modules? Simply because they added some in the download? The core has definately gone forward in cvs and that really counts.

However, 9.0.6.1 is simply a fine product and most people don't need much more than that right now. Okay, maybe we could get a little worried about the 9.0.6.1 security patches not being released as a download. And if you really need MySQL5 support now (?) then you have somewhat of a reason to pressure them to get the next official release ready. Otherwise there's little to ask for if you ask me.


alva's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Linux/Apache/5.0.24/5/9.1 CVS
View user's profileVisit poster's website
protoplasm
Supporter

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 40

DJMaze wrote
DF is GPL and that will always be, there's no way we are heading a different direction and this is also because many people have put their skills into it.


That is reassuring. Still, we don't know the vision for the GPL version.

If you understand the GPL then you will notice it is also an impossible task to tag a different license on it because of third party code like coppermine and the phpbb derivatives.


I do understand that, but what are the implications of combining GPL and non-GPL licensing? Someone has a Downloads Pro module on their, say otherwise GPL commercial website, which license applies? This isn't an issue for me, but I don't want to use a module I can't tweek. Best for me to stay away, because I'm a tinkerer.

Trevor and I have put "Downloads Pro" on a different license to prevent snooping and derivative works. Not because of "stealing" but to provide Dragonfly users something special that is not available in other software like php-nuke.


I want to customize my website. Is that a derivative work? Yes, in my mind. So I have to stay away from Pro modules.

It also gives you as user a good point of customer support instead of running around on many websites trying to get support from a derivative work.


Here's the issue as I see it. Brilliant young developers are now in their early to late 20s and need to earn a living doing something they love. I am of the opinion that there has to be a way to do it and keep DF GPL (I mean, effectively GPL. I realize that DF is GPL).

Possibilities:
1. Establish a CLEAR PLAN and vision for the GPL. An ambitious plan or ToDo. Every 'business' needs a clear vision: post a clear business plan and organizational heirarchy. Post you plan for everyone to see.
2. Actively solicit more volunteers for every aspect of DF. This can be done with minimal effort through simple posts on your front page. You need volunteers for documentation, marketing, legal work, creative direction, and coders. I'm sure there are other expertise volunteers out there as well. Let the volunteers have a prominent space on the website to post their information, freelance fees, unrelated business etc. if they want.
3. Develop great documentation both front (website) and backend (coding) for DF. To be truly open source, developers need easy access to how DF works.
4. Great design sells. Sorry to say, this is one of DF's major downfalls. I think the DF community could double almost overnight if there was attention to professional themeing. Actively solicit volunteer professional graphic web designers to create at least one or two really attractive, professional-looking themes for DF. Use one of these professional looking themes on your official site. (You are a coder and code is as beautiful as a flower to you. But most people are attracted to flowers visually, not the xylem and phloem. Catch my drift?) Evolve the software to increase your target audience.
4. Actively solicit volunteer coders and other's help or take them under your wing. If you are restricted and can't do coding by job contract restrictions, you probably could oversee other coders. Or assign others with the big picture to oversee. But stay involved as DJ=DF in my mind, although I know it is the work of countless others as well.
5. Possibly you could have three versions of the Community Forums. One version is basic and free. It deals with just downloads, installation and features. The other is for member support and donations are requested and actively solicited (but not required) for membership. If you have to create an annoying popup or some other gizmo, do it. The survival of GPL DF is at stake. The other forum costs $ and is a developers forum or forum for commercial users support.
6. Solicit volunteer business people, marketers, etc.
7. Solicit corporate sponsorships and/or use advertisements.
8. Allow the volunteers to have their business/contact information posted prominently somewhere on the website if they so choose, as an incentive.
9. Allow freelance coders who volunteer with the GPL a prominent place to post their rates for private work. Have a board where work needs are posted and designers and coders could bid for a job.
10. Actively solicit donations.

As your model, just look at some of the thriving CMS GPL communities that are already out there and see what they are doing. Actively solicit the help of a volunteer lawyers, business people, marketers, anyone who has expertise. Don't be afraid to ask. You would be surprised how generous people can be with something they believe in.

There is no reason why DF couldn't remain GPL and become even better than it is. There is no reason why DF couldn't make money acceptably/legally and lots of it for the organization and its 'employees'. That's my opinion, but consult a lawyer. I'm sure some of my suggestions above may not fly, but seriously, there is no reason why Dragonfly couldn't be helping to support some of the people who have made it possible.

That's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth.


protoplasm's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Unix/Apache 1.3.33 /PHP 4.4.14/MySQL 4.1.14-standard/Dragonfly 9.0.6.1
View user's profile
Rayvenhaus
Silver Supporter

Offline Offline
Joined: May 10, 2004
Posts: 573
Location: Spokane, WA

Interesting topic of discussion today. I was rather interested in reading everyone opinions concerning licensing and all since so many are truely confused about what the licenses mean and how they are vs how they should be applied. Specailly where the GPL is concerned.

I'm very impressed by your words protoplasm.

_________________
quis custodiet ipsos custodes



Rayvenhaus's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Debian 6.07/Apache 2.x/MySQL 5.x/PHP 5.3/DF 9.x
View user's profileSend e-mailVisit poster's websiteICQ NumberAIM AddressYahoo Messenger
DJ Maze
Developer

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 5918
Location: http://tinyurl.com/5z8dmv

Something like this: dragonflycms.org/Wiki/id=108.html ?


DJ Maze's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Fedora 19 / 2.4.6 / 5.5.37 / 5.5.13 / Mercurial
View user's profilePhoto Gallery
protoplasm
Supporter

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 40

DJMaze wrote
Something like this: dragonflycms.org/Wiki/id=108.html ?


I realize I got a little sidetracked in the section below with too many uninvited suggestions about something a bit off topic. I think I said all that because I would really like DF to continue to flourish and be win-win for users AND developers. And because I would like to see DF continue to move forward with successful GPL development.

Suffice it to say, the link you gave doesn't answer the questions I have. It doesn't express to me a clear plan or vision for the future development of DF. It doesn't address my current concerns or the confusion that many users are feeling.


----
Where do I begin?

Not like that at all.

That's not even an acceptable outline. It isn't personable. It isn't prominently visible to the the future DF user. It isn't aesthetically inviting. It isn't written to a certain level of user. But most importantly, it isn't functional. It doesn't answer the main questions I would want to know if I were evaluating different CMS's. Why would someone decide to use DF after reading just that? What is that--a roadmap of what? Not to disparage other people's work, but DF needs to develop each one of those sections and MANY more into far more indepth, inviting material and present it in a professional, organized, logical, and aesthetically attractive way. Clearly, a volunteer information architect's expertise and professional writers would be helpful here. And I can't emphasize enough, the importance of good visual design.

Am I supposed to get the feeling that the roadmap and DF is mainly a CMS for other coders? Who is your target audience or who should your target audience be now? Consider redefining and expanding your target audience and developing materials to them at the level of the lowest common denominator you wish to attract. Your easy installer tells me that you would really like all levels of users. Then DF should develop materials that meets that level of need.

If DF wants to grow, DF must think outside the coder's box. Assign others with professional expertise or competent passion and experience in these areas to do these types of things. Brilliant coders should be coding and recognizing the need for other experienced volunteer professionals' help to grow an organization. (You wouldn't want a correspondence course pilot flying your plane. Or an experienced pilot who doubles as a mechanic and stewardess).

DJ, I would suggest you revisit other CMS's front end materials to really get an idea of what's needed. Look at Drupal or Joomla! or any of the serious biggies. People will need to put as much thought, time, and insight into writing and organizing DF's accompanying materials as you and others have put into the coding. I'm a hobbyist coder and I want to be able to tweek things fast, not spend days trying to figure out the nuances of DF from scratch which is what I am currently doing. Ease of use and development is a MAJOR factor in an open source user base. And donation base.

When I am new to a CMS, I want to know not only features, thorough and complete documentation, contributors credentials (gives me an idea of the quality), ongoing development, api, what vision the CMS has for the future. Is it going to add certain features? Where are these in development? etc. etc. etc. You have some of these things on the front page. But that page isn't enough either.

The more developers and web host resellers you attract, the more of a base you will have for future users. You can't do this with great success if you leave out any of the crucial ingredients: great code AND great documentation (front and backend), good visual design, competent support, clear vision and direction, and passion.

Word of mouth will sell a truly great CMS with all these ingredients. It can also doom a good CMS to failure.

You will absolutely need to enlist other people's help who are really seriously willing to participate and who do other similar things professionally and are willing to donate their time to helping. Good materials can't be written in 5 minutes. And if you have the best documentation on the planet and you have poor readability or uninviting design, you writing off a whole population of potential users. And future donations.

Again, just my opinion. Sorry I had to jot this off rather quickly.


protoplasm's server specs (Server OS / Apache / MySQL / PHP / DragonflyCMS)
Unix/Apache 1.3.33 /PHP 4.4.14/MySQL 4.1.14-standard/Dragonfly 9.0.6.1


Last edited by protoplasm on Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:23 am; edited 4 times in total
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:
All times are UTC
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

User Info

Welcome Anonymous



(Register)
Community

Support for DragonflyCMS in a other languages:

Deutsch
Español