9.2.3.3 Reply to topic

As a courtesy, Nano issued an unofficial pre-release, then made some minor cvs changes to accommodate some concerns. Under the circumstances, you're damned lucky he's doing anything at all - I am quite disgusted about the treatment he got from layingback.

Rosbif had a query so I clarified it and directed him to the cvs file which I suspected he would not have found (layingback does know where to find it).

I am not aware of any significant software system where revised RC's are released by developers after a couple of trivial cvs changes.

I don't need your sanctimonious lectures - I thought we were past those when you abandoned DF.

Phoenix wrote

I don't need your sanctimonious lectures

Yeah, you do. How else can you sound so righteous while flaming all us little people?

"The treatment he got from layingback" as you put it was because I'd been carrying on a series of posts asking for a fix, with input from Nano of "Did you tried?" I raised this issue and he asks if I tested it first? Really made me feel "spoken to."

OK, now the Inspector has pointed it out, I missed Nano's double post where he mentioned CVS. I'm sorry - send me to hell and back or whatever passes as punishment for such a sin of omission here.

But I riled because this isn't an isolated case. It's _impossible_ to know what's going on here, even if you are trying to find out. Nothing is shared. You have to ask, ask, and ask again, often to even get a cryptic reply. And that makes it pretty darn clear that asking isn't especially welcome.

And CVS is now very, very hard to keep an eye on unless you want v10 (whatever that is). Without the undocumented ?b=9 (which you have to type in after you get the module and then go via the History link) it is not even possible to see the actual changes! I used to scan CVS to look for such changes, but no longer, that just isn't viable any more - way, way too many keystrokes - unless you are on v10.

I got the info on the secret ?b=9 by asking questions, actually a different question. And that's the issue. No, I don't want info on a "silver platter", but I don't want to be made to feel that I'm imposing just to find out how to _continue_ to use CVS. Info here is certainly not "handed out on a silver platter", nor is it even shared unless and until someone manages, accidentally usually like the CVS 9 case, to elicit a small morsel.

So keep your silver platter gathering dust by all means, but please let's stop making this a cross between an uninteresting adventure game and a childish initiation rights ceremony for "the community" - it's really no fun being treated as a "lesser."

This is all my fault, no one else. I'll get the full responsibility, all the blame and all the consequences.

Talking about CVS I thought you all had a CVS version (or at least knew how to make it CVS) but instead you are using the downloadable zip file as normal users and not as developers.

I'm trying to communicate using forums, projects and changelog but still not luck. I'm sorry If I "wasted" "small people" time (sarcastic? not the only one here) but I see that I'm still not able to get it right for everyone's taste.

I think it's time to let some of the truth to come out now.

I'm sorry if my cancer slowed down DragonflyCMS development and I know that Phoenix did what he did because he knew my condition, so from now on I'll be the only target here, no one else.

Brokencrust's user delete module created horrible database issues to everyone who used it. It caused hundreds of failed upgrades and hundreds of users left because of this. I took all the blame for it and patched the installer to fix them all up.
The change at module level would have caused the module itself to stop working making it redundant and useless so I never said anything, except Phoenix, to keep his module alive and his integrity intact.
We did say many times to leave the user table alone but again it's still my fault because I rejected this kind of feature.

I also gave /html CVS access to eastlane and others at my entire responsibility but somehow instead of fixing things they kept reporting bugs and feature requests and then left because nothing was ever done ... I will shoot my self when I finally understand them.

Am I being sarcastic? Not the only one here so don't even think about it!

It's still my fault if 9.x was "released" from CVS (aka it's not visible any more).
I was not supposed to keep working on it because of PHP 5 but I still did, for the community of course, and I've been punished for it.

I can hold all the blame you all will ever imagine in all your life and I would still feel light as a cloud.

This post will distinguish men from children.
In the meantime I'll keep working for the community, small or big.
I love this software and I love what I do. No one will ever make me change idea. I'm not a quitter!

GNU/GPL rules! I'm a believer! Are you?

NanoCaiordo wrote

This post will distinguish men from children.
In the meantime I'll keep working for the community, small or big.
I love this software and I love what I do. No one will ever make me change idea. I'm not a quitter!

GNU/GPL rules! I'm a believer! Are you?

We need a "2 thumbs up" button!

As for me: i'm a bit on the side line but that is due to some major tasks i have at the moment to get into Web 3.0 (HTML5, CSS3, WebDAV, etc. etc.) and Firefox 4 & IE9 are already bugging me that they are lacking some cool HTML 5 specs and throw errors in my face.

Blimey.. Sorry to hear about your health problems Nano - nothing compares to getting through that.

I certainly didn't realise this release was not an RC release. Your first post said 'This will be most likely the last 9.x release. From now on only security fixes will make to 9.x code.' - I mistook that for meaning that it was official.

In which case I shall wait until the dust settles before downloading it!

I certainly didn't know there was a v9 CVS either!

There have been few confusions, my mistake not to release them as stable. After all are only bug fixes and few features only.

Nano, Firstly Thank You for that long post. A huge amount of information, and now many things make more sense.

Am I a believer in GNU/GPL? Ardent believer and advocate. rms remains one of the moret impressive people that I've been privileged to meet, and that was well before FSF, GNU, etc. It's been almost 10 years since I bought a proprietary software product barring the almost unavoidable but heavily resented Microsoft Tax on a new PC, and at least 5 years since I upgraded anything proprietary. And no, I haven't been using bootleg copies either.

I am also a great believer in the truth, no matter how painful it may be to learn. I've found that hiding the truth - no matter how noble the motives - all too often leads to bigger problems in the end, and almost always prolongs them.

I was unaware of your health issues, and am truly sorry to hear about them. We all take our health too much for granted - until it's impaired. Here's hoping your recovery goes well.

I believe I am a strong supporter of DragonflyCMS, both the site and the product. And indeed I will remain a supporter and user of DragonflyCMS regardless and independent of my level of activity here at DragonflyCMS.org. I've committed months if not years of effort developing and supporting Pro_News, and I'm not about to chuck that away.

I get a kick out of bending Pro_News (and sometimes DF ) to suit my every whim, to solve a specific requirement or to meet someone's requested need. But I also get a huge kick out of supporting it! Communicating with my users, and working with them to mutually enhance the product or their site or both. I've never physically met anyone who uses Pro_News (beyond my handful of clients of course), but still count many of them as friends. That mostly takes place at my own site of course.

My outburst here was directly as a result of frustration. Not so much frustration at what was - or indeed wasn't - happening, but because I feel strongly that this community could be so much more, and that DragonflyCMS could only be better as a result of it.

Nano, most of us still here are not developers in the way you mean when you say " ... using the downloadable zip file as normal users and not as developers." Yeah I blunder through PHP, etc. on Pro_News, but my coding days were a long time ago (there's a very good reason I didn't learn C and my use of Dragonfly is no more as a developer than my use of an OS - it's just a platform.

I use CVS locally for Pro_News, I can pull a CVS and did for reDesign, but really there is no reason for me to have a DF CVS version. I need a stable, consistent platform, so the version of DF that I deploy, that I use, that I test on, and that I fully support, is just 1 version - a slightly patched 9.2.1. The issue of the earlier update to 9.2.1 made me realise that to run Pro_News I don't need a later/better version of DF. Don't get me wrong, if there was one which offered benefits I'd jump on it, but the current one meets all my criteria - for now and the immediately foreseeable future.

That said I do have improvements that I would like to see, and some that I've implemented and released and would very much like to see in DF by default. But in the vacuum that is currently dragonflycms.org it's really hard to see how to make anything like this happen.

I believe my nbbcode with support for the widely used table BBCodes, as well as surfacing the list BBCodes, would be a good inclusion - IMHO. And you already know that I see reDesign3 as an essential part of DF which should be in the standard release, if not the default (small d) theme alongside the existing Default (large D) theme.

But there is no way to effectively even campaign for that here, AFAICS. Entering a brief Feature Request is not going to create a groundswell of support, nor is it going to make it happen NOW. Honestly I'm not interested in whether it is committed to be in v10 or not. It needs to be in in months or less. Like it or not we live on "Internet Time" these days, and way too many things over which we have no control will change before then, so who knows if reDesign will even be still relevant by then?

As I've got this far, another issue I see for DF is the effort of - successfully - installing an add-on. Not the installer per se, you Nano, have done a great job in streamlining that, but simply uploading the various folders to the right place is daunting and error-prone for a newbie. AS is picking packages, etc. Simple solution is an alternate release of DF which includes a rational set of modules already installed. And a marketing focussed demo site so people can see it, test drive it, and know they can replicate it, before they "buy." If it contained 80% of what 80% need, it woudl provide a platform for users to install and use, and get up to speed with and learn about, before they need to determine how to add modules. DIsk space is cheap these days, even on Hosts, and it is much easier to enable/disable a properly installed module than it is to install and configure one.

None of that requires Nano or other true developers, members here can do much of this themselves as a group, but it DOES require open communication - and discussion - with ALL so that it is done in way which can and will gain full support after it is completed.

I have no intention to leave - unless I'm asked - but I don't want to be here and not leave a mark either. That is what GNU - F/LOSS is all about, no?

I'm very disappointed that my poor english makes it very hard for me to understand all things in the right way.

Anyway, i really like to see DF community growing again.
As i'm not a designer but more a developper, i'm tired to have to explain to the designer i work with the choice i make to work with DF.
Often these designer make the customers aware of the fact DF has a poor activity and a little community. They are right in doing so but as the technical part i have to make my own choice and for now DF is the one i'd liked to work with and the one i want to continue working with in the future. Sometimes this leads in loosing projects because the customer prefers a CMS like Joomla, Drupal, ...

So as i allready mentioned in other threads, i would be happy to help but there must be a leader managing the various tasks.

Is there currently a list of tasks that are needed ?
Perhaps i would be an idea to build such a list of important topics that must be done and managed. It's utopic to keep all this work on one person. Of course the various tasks must be done by reliable persons, that implicate themselves in the project.

I see the following things:
- User support
- DF site design
- DF themes
- Developement tasks
- Marketing and communication outside the DF site

If the ressources of the core team are to few to allow a growing community it can be a choice to leave it as such, but then it must be clearly communicated, and DF should be positioned as a core platform for developpers and not as an end user product.

The discussion is going off topic, perhaps it's better to split this thread.

Heres my 2 cents.

DF has its issues just like every other project.

I could make a list of issues that would take 3 days to read. Im not.
Main issues are Communications, Personal Agendas, Idiots who think they can code, Short tempers, No thought about others, etc.

When I first Joined DF i did not even know what html meant. I started modding themes moved up to porting themes, etc. I learned by asking questions and using Search which i have found over the years most ppl don't do. I stopped doing themes. Its not worth it. Most ppl are ungrateful.

Nano is die hard DF. As Far as im concerned no one should ever disrespect him in any way shape or form for any reason. He has put 1000's +++ Hours into this project. He dont ask {expletive removed} from no one. But he has taken a lot of {expletive removed} from damn near everyone including me.

I feel the same way about Phoenix, although I still don't like him.

Now that you all know about Marco's Health I hope every fcking one of you been giving him a hard way to go puts yourself on a guilt trip from hell. to fcking self absorbed to think for a moment he is human to, an has a life outside of Df like the rest of us.

If you ain't figured it out yet, Yes the way you all act {expletive removed} me off to no end.

Remember a few things.
1st you dont pay for Df or to use it so you aint got nothing at all to bitch about.
2nd If you dont like it help to fix it. DF is meant to be small, fast, and secure so if Nano and them put the time into making it for you to use the least you can do is read a tutorials to learn how to install it and use it.
3rd treat others as you wish to be treated.

I know this will probably get deleted but im sure a few will read it before hand

NanoCaiordo,

My 2 cents,,, but THANK YOU for all the work and for ALL the answers you have provided to me over the years.....

There were always a couple of people I could go straight to and get the right answer or at least help when needed....